Not exactly the mild and loving spirit of Jesus. Who do you want to be in Gods sight? Hey, if you look at JMACs Instagram he has a pic from fall of 2018 praising Mark Driscolls new book? They stated goal is to also expose hypocrisy and arrogance. During this season, we are encouraging everyone to give online and that can be done by clicking the button below. Harvest Bible Chapel has fired its founder and senior pastor James MacDonald following years of controversial behavior, financial scandal and allegations of bullying and intimidation. Well, I assume that you are the Dallas Jenkins referred to in the OP, but I have no way of confirming that. A lot of people still hurt. A narcissist is very good at manipulating people, and very patient. The first three paragraphs above is what I was hoping to comment on lol. Agreed; I cant imagine that Paul would be pleased with what is happening. Ive stepped inside a church once in the last three years; we were out of town visiting friends, and they invited us, and my wife looked at me like Please, honey, just this one time, lets not make a scene. So I went along and it felt something like being in the car, trying to teach my teenager how to drivewhite knuckles. They taught 200 pastors how to create a stronger choke-hold on their church so that no one can wrestle it away from them. I see several at work in this situation at all levels top to bottom of the organization. Keep tuning in to TWW. First was Willow Creek Community Church and lead pastor, Bill Hybels. . Many are passionate about their cause, but it is far too often found to be a misplaced passion. We got the heck out and it took us a couple of years to find our way to the Lutheran church. If for no other reasons, the statements must be public so that the people of HBC see what their Elders saw. in Springfield MO in late April Driscoll Will be sharing his wisdom as a highlighted speaker. Does that make you manly? Sad. It was given to the elders two months ago. The churches have become the world. Nothing to be ashamed of. And I know I post too much. My current frustration, as someone who wants to get it right, is not knowing how to get it right in light of all the historical evidence. Max: I suspect that even MacDonald started out with good intentions (maybe). Dee has been at it for over ten years. He made his directing debut with the short film Clich, and his next short film, Midnight Clear, starring Stephen Baldwin, won a Crystal Heart Award from the Heartland Film Festival. Ive read that the sweet spot in church size, that combines small enough to know the flock (and small enough that all the flock can know the leaders) and large enough to be endowed with a diverse array of gifts is around 300. Thats a smoking crater of a response. elastigirl: but ultimately it means people are brainwashed into being acquiescent, passive, accommodating, maintaining their silence. Was it because he met the qualifications for eldership? I just found out about it a few minutes ago. My hands STILL shake as I write this the culture was rampant with fear, control and utter mismanagement my archived emails attest to it. It doesnt even look vibrant anymore. I think you are correct in noting this early Church writer's statements. Children were crying, looking around with fear on their faces, teachers were trying to physically comfort some by embracing them, and even removed some children. . 7,646 were here. I will reflect on your honesty and embrace the possibilities. If you dont get why your letter was leaked and why people are upset, I would say youre isolated and you need to take the blinders off. For me I choose to pray and let God work, he never ceases to amaze especially when he answers prayer. I suspect, from many comments of those involved, that there was an actual mafia-like aspect of JMacs control. My family get in my face from time to time over it. all of this stuff was predicted by the NT. But isnt the model you commented on the same model that HBC followed and totally bollixed up? Another typo I meant Peter and Paul. I am very glad for all your comments on this site. Thats a rare bird, indeed, in the American church. If Dees afraid of Hall, she sure hasnt done a very good job of living it out. The daughter of Matt Slick (big-gun-reformed-apologist) converted to fundamental atheism. Those who are truly qualified (I think) know they are so in need of Gods favor to consistently live that out and are only barely qualified by what God has already done in them to that point. The Bible is clear that all people are God's creation (Colossians 1:16), and that God loves the entire world (John 3:16), but only those who have faith (trust) in the work of Jesus are children of God (John 1:12; 11:52; Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1-10). When the Elders terminated James, the named only three sins (abuse, domineering behavior, and inappropriate language) that did not reflect the entirety of the content between all of the statements. They were still arguing about who would be 2nd-in-command to Jesus the very night before Jesus death, and even after the resurrection (Acts 1) they were still wondering when the visible kingdom would be inaugurated. This has been going on now for 12 years. Every man has his price, or a guy like me couldnt exist. If it werent for the subject matter, it would have been rated X (violence) and denounced by Christians as Violence/Torture porn. Ill have to ruminate on that a while. I bring up Eastern Orthodoxy because its dogma and practices are very old. Its true, though, this is kind of an agonized therapy for me, and I am sincere. TS00: That community is you all, for whom I am so grateful! Then, he apologized and said the would teach the high school Bible class. of good behaviour Reported that Camp Harvest lost over $200,000 in 2016. It might be handy (for someone in high places with a gambling addiction) to have an insider to assist them in hiding their identity or amount of activity. Does anyone here think Dallas wouldnt have delighted in pointing out a series of lies being told about Harvest leaders and defending himself? Dont let the hypocrisy of men lessen your trust in God. So yeah, theres really NOBODY looking over Driscolls shoulder, Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely (Lord Acton). And after a brief pause in this mission, Harvest is returning to planting more and better churches by raising up more and better Christian leaders across Chicagoland, America, and around the world. This is indeed the plan of Satan, IMO, but when you try to suggest such a thing you are usually scoffed at as a conspiracy theorist. husband of one wife Instead, all the surviving records appear to show the Church was liturgical and sacramental from the beginning, with established offices of bishops, priests, and deacons. TS00: Truth was genetically modified centuries ago. The Naples church was founded in 2016 and carried the . Hours . Maybe you should have considered the consequences of your actions, or inaction, before you decided to hitch your wagon to JM. Nice list. The company typically gets sick and diessometimes quickly and sometimes suddenlybut it dies. temperate Ive felt sins breakers dashing, Abused and misused, it stands in for everything from I can never be good enough for God to accept me, to sin-leveling, and license to ignore my humanity and to go ahead and do the kinds of things to others I wouldnt want done to me. Does it matter if they were technically doing it right if it ends up with a lot of shredded Christians on the other side? you are a very comforting presence here, Max. Harvest Bible Chapel is a large evangelical organization with congregations across the metro Chicago area. One would think that 3 years with Jesus ought to be transformative, but the Gospels seem pretty clear that the Twelve were following Jesus at least in part in hope of high office in a future visible kingly reign over Israel. You dont get to ask for silence now. whether agnostic, atheist, muslim, hindu, buddhist, zoroastrian, wiccan, mormon, straight, lgbtq,. If I were you, I would review what happened at Mars Hill and the Mark Driscoll implosion. Hours . "I believe (that is) my job in my personal life. I prayed for your father-in-law and your family just now. You should make your case by offering proof. Its been about the cash for the last 20 years! In a Good Way. a word for when you throw up a basket of fruit and everything settles in a different place, and youre confused because you understood each thing in relation to all the other things. They all seem to be on display at HBC. But, I aint Paul, so I suppose I will just have to wait and see how this sorts itself out in eternity. Instead, the whole thing was a Yes Men (and Im not talking about the performance artist group) operation for the aggrandizement of James McDonald. TS00: sometimes I feel pretty alone in this wilderness. Dallas Jenkins And The Mormon's Counterfeit Jesus According to Ingrid McCullough: Mr. Jenkins claims that he felt God speaking to him 3-4 times in his life. Noevangelical, lets get a bunch of our favorite beverages, cheese, olives, chocolate, cigars and a candle and well continue on. Sandy: In the history of the church, which is most seductive: money, sex, or power? The NT clearly outlines the positive attributes I am talking about.. Having re-read the letter a few times now I find it to be more of a CYA document than anything else. This is no different then the very worst of false teachers in 2019. These snakes congregate in the pit together! What I see, I cant un-see; what I know I cant un-know its in my knower! Over time, the North Shore church family found they needed a place for weekday ministries. If I find solace anywhere, its in the quiet moments of solitude and silence wherein I sense anew that the mysteries of life are vast, and that my continued pursuit of that which is beautiful and simple and true is enough for now. This will always happen, there is no way to avoid it. Given His choice of companionship last time He was here, your friend from that Bible study might be shocked. I understand your point and the historical information. "And at the same time, I'm doing a show about humans who are flawed people," he says. No more circumcision. Also want to acknowledge it took courage to write that letter knowing your children might be kicked out of school. Sunday services, weekly small groups, other events all give meaning to peoples lonely lives, and the rest is mostly fluff. Didnt Dallas or is there another Jenkins son? In reality, if the undeniable evidence leads to the sad realization that our most beloved parent, spouse, child or pastor is not who we have believed them to be, we must be willing to deal with the facts. I just found out about it a few minutes ago. ex HCA Staff: All that we could come up with was that we, and they, were faithful and generous givers and attenders of the mens bible study. Its not like a plurality of elders guarantees anything, or multiple pastors is anything special. Milky Way timelapse photobombed by the Aurora Borealis over Loch More in Scotland. Jmac is an uncare bear, so is Dallas Jenkins for that matter. While I am glad that he came here to confirm the authenticity of the letter, your attitude still shows that you have a long ways to go towards producing fruit that actually looks like repentance. Debby: Check out the Stronger Mens Conference etc. You will come closer to finding the genuine in third-world countries where the persecuted church resides. i think we could analyze this for days, weeks, months. Jenkins is a former member of the Executive Leadership Team at Harvest Bible Chapel where he served as the Executive Director of Vertical Church Media. Just them asking me to become an elder told me something was wrong. God looks lovingly upon your confusion and pain, and wants nothing more than for you to find and know him as he truly is, apart from all of the hypocrisy and falsity that parades as the institutional church. Leaders raging, even with kids; no one doing anything but continuing to pay. You wanted your letter to remain in the dark and hoped that no one would know of your hidden statement. Our former pastor was not only being paid far more than the community and congregational average, we were always showering them with paid vacations, new clothing for the kids and cash gifts. Hes earned his money, That is because genuine relationships among people are an existential threat to the cult. Consider the following Scriptures: And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors [POIMEN] and teachers (Ephesians 4:11). Narcissistic business CEOs mistreat their subordinates and the nastiness flows downhill within the enterprise. All three words refer to one position or office within the church, that of the elders. Precept Inductive Bible Study for Women. In fact, you can take it a lot farther than that. This all happens when we gather, grow and go together as followers of Jesus. Amen to all those who have written shame on you., roebuck: nobody goes there anymore its too crowded. Yogi Berra, Im surprised mega churches ever become crowded since You can observe a lot by just watching. -Yogi Berra. In all honesty, Dallas, since Mac and those around him, including you, took great delight in his being a very public ministry with great influence and far reach, this is a matter for public airing. And just because there is a list of qualifications doesnt mean that men wont lie to gain access, or construct a pseudo religion to hide in. Most of those who attended my former Calvinist Church have wandered back to non-Reformed churches; several others have rejected God altogether. A few final remarks concerning the pastors. It is a position of authority and responsibility. Cool bands, espresso coffee, relevant sermons, fun and fellowship, etc. Never to leave me alone! If so, that would be a good thing if we could get back to letting the Main Thing be the main thing. Ive had 58 years to observe her fruit, and, while not perfect, she has proven generally consistent and trustworthy. You have been on the pulse, on target, and on the money with each and every post I have read on Twitter and now on TWW. After two years of searching without success, a generous supporter offered Harvest her property650 beautiful, wooded acres on a lake in Newaygo, Michiganand Camp Harvest was launched on July 28, 2002. Notice that Fred brags about Negotiating more than $100 million in church mortgage financing. With their leadership training, it appears that men like Hybels and MacDonald groom charismatic potential leaders in how to control and manipulate naive, trusting believers for their own personal, or the institutions, gain. not greedy for money Honest question: why does it matter what Paul thinks? I do know from reading the Acts of Perpetua and Felicity (said to have been written in 203) that church leaders argued with each other. He will spend years building a good rapport before gradually working toward his true agenda. No more sin sacrifices. That being said, I would think there is great value in making this public: as a warning for potential future victims of James MacDonald. Many a victim of domestic or spiritual abuse might have been better protected by understanding this reality. Sadly, I have yet to see even one of these elders or executive staff members repent in a productive, redemptive manner. There was a letter by Dean Butters that was leaked this past week. The way back: 2 Chronicles 7:14 but I dont see much movement in that direction. The posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the comments both here and on Twitter from anonymous people. The Elephant Debt has painstakingly detailed these issues for over five years. This, along with the embracing of the whole seeker-friendly, mega-church model caused us to leave the church and people we loved, difficult as it was to explain. Wasnt it Groucho Marx who once quipped, I would never join an organization who would have me as a member? Lowlandseer: Also, we must note who it is that the elders have authority over. Harvest Bible Chapel began meeting the Rolling Meadows High School building. The images of Christs mother Mary witnessing her sons torture, the glances and faces of the cast Mel Gibson portrayed were (and frankly still are) made to elicit deep evil and were very frightening to see, and the utter agony of Christs pain was so graphic, I still cant erase it from my memory. The official anniversary date was September 18, 2018. dee: You chose to serve in a church with incredibly stupid, unbiblical and mean people in charge. Too many are like big box stores that shutter all of (the little churches on) Main Street, and then close their own doors forever. Vague and almost never supported accusations, e.g., the posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the commentshere is always, in my experience, just a smear from someone whos actually rather cowardly and just looking to defame. As of 2020, they now gather as City Line Church. Hang on. Max: America needs more Vietnamese restaurants than New Calvinist church plants. Harvest took in over a HALF A BILLION DOLLARS in the last 12 yrs and many of their properties were donated free and clear. And before any more electrons needlessly perish, an argument about the validity of the pastoral office vs elders is probably not the real issue in the HBC case. Does that make you manly? Sad. husband of one wife Sadly, it is not uncommon to find that in time of great loss, the church is not really there for them after all, that in case of health problems that make one unable to serve, they are quickly forgotten, that the great majority of those friendships have a tendency to evaporate or even turn to shunning if put to the test; that it was all a grand illusion, after all the time, effort and loyalty invested. Its time to throw open the windows HBC so all can see what really happened. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. In January, Gateway held a Pastors School Seminar inside Driscolls church that was all about Church Governance. Straight up, you need to rethink this. At this point, Im not so sure that the church, as it is now manifested, is the keeper of pure Truth at all. Harvest members face losing their church homes over this man, yet he is planning on exporting this secret personal enrichment scheme, that is not at arms length, throughout the U.S. EXACTLY the same as at Willow Creek Community Church. Using second hand information is not of God. Years ago when I was experiencing a dark period spiritually someone said to me, Hang onto God! In response without thinking these words came out of my mouth (and I cant help but think it was the Holy Spirit speaking), I cant hang onto God right now but He will hang onto me. Ive seen the lightning flashing, Agreed. I judge not those who remain I truly understand the depth of the manipulation but hope they do not fall victim to the crisis of faith and to the abyss that often follows when all youve built your faith on falls to ashes. Samuel Conner: I wonder whether it might not be better to simply abandon the entire property-owning paradigm and return to the original practice of meeting in public places (for large groups) and in homes (for small groups). Ill follow up with some details later. We care about you and your family. The posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the comments both here and on Twitter from anonymous people. It just completely sets things up for abusive situations. Agreed. Someone should also dig into the incident regarding the video of Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ that was shown to HCA ELEMENTARY school children without any warning or notice to parents in the first year of the schools history during Holy Week. Jenkins himself was brought on as an elder at Harvestwhy was he chosen? The fellowship network of about 120 churches, many of which still have Harvest in their name . Truth is real. Since you supposedly know *the truth* why dont you do what I try to do with each post? We have versions of truth and half-truth at best in most places, allowing a theological DNA to supersede the real thing. Because of pain. Ive tried to leave TWW twice to go fishing or something, but my fans urged me to stay. It used to be so unthinkable to imagine life without religion as I have always known it. The word contains with it a reference to age. now if only you could do it without whining. But if these offices are wrong it means the wheels fell of of the Church extremely early in its history. Your actions are tell tale in what you believe regard God and Jesus his son. Harvest Bible Chapel (HBC) has long been under scrutiny for its finances, questionable transparency, large debts due to its acquisitions of many campuses in the Chicago area, and possible mismanagement. Cool bands, espresso coffee, relevant sermons, fun and fellowship, etc, In the words of the Prophets Emerson, Lake, and Palmer: Wow. etc. Authoritarianism can still be the order of the day in any setting of any size. Why would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature like that? , Info on the photo is apparently wrong. Based on my 70-year snapshot of the institutional church, theres a vast difference in what Christ describes vs. what we have put together in this thing we call church. Your story matches what I hear from lots of people. Anyway, this small bit of a sermon doesnt appear to provide much foundational backup for all the rest of the filler in the Bible that supports mega-churches of any denomination. none of that matters now. Maybe thats why the history of the church is a history of exodus from established groups and setting up of new ones? In September of 2012, we experienced another provision of God, in the form of the Scottish Rite Cathedrala historical landmark we reclaimed for the gospel in the heart of Chicagos Gold Coastwhich became the Chicago Cathedral Campus. About how you think there is something wrong with you because you dont feel the same things that they do, and soon you come to believe that you are defective or damaged goods. And today we have 50 year old churches that went afowl 45 years agothey may have all of the teminology down and believe they are the magisterium protecting the truth, but they are dead and Gods Spirit has left. How does he know that? MacDonald pulled Harvest Bible Chapel from the fellowship, breaking the link between the two. but now that theyre all in different places, what does each mean now? And we are in the Lent season. The people of God have forsaken their first love. This cancer is about to metastasize across the U.S. and ALL of the dirt needs to be made public for the safety and spiritual well-being of the masses. to take stock in ones view, and have confidence in it, is personal responsibility. Ive heard the voice of my Savior, TS00: there are several who have commented that attended church with JMac in his youth, and they have nothing positive to say about him or his character from way back. Harvest Bible Chapel is one church meeting on six campuses. Thats too deep to answer. In reality, it lost about $29,000. I tracked down the World Magazine article on Jerry Jenkins gambling from which I had gleaned what little info I had and saw that it mentioned that Dallas also participated in online poker, and that another son was a dealer at a real live casino. Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? Didnt Paul rejoice from prison that the gospel was preached, whether from false motives or true? It seems fairly common that if the truly informed Reformed do not return to their faith in a God who loves all men they eventually end up atheists. but also why it doesnt seem to happen in the institution. The church (ecclesia) had little say in eldership or pastor. It wasnt all self-interest; they actually thought that good was being accomplished in spite of the bad conduct behind the scenes. It would appear that Jesus last words to them were sort of a rebuke. ++++++++++++++++++. Clevin: Does anyone have examples of big churches that are emblems of integrity? Dallas Jenkins (born July 25, 1975) is an American film and television director, writer and film producer. Like livestock for slaughter so Pastor can eat mutton until he bursts like Mr Creosote. Temptation sharp and keen. While Im not one of those men who consistently meets the qualification for eldership, I do know several who do. Rolling Meadows, Elgin, Crystal Lake, Chicago Cathedral, Harvest en Espaol, Online. Someone asked How high does this go? And probably just as Drama-Rama and Fundy about it, Magick Crystals and all. In April of 2021, following an extensive search and urgent prayer, the Elders of Harvest Bible Chapel announced the new Lead Teaching Pastor to be Dr. Jeff Bucknam. No ill will intended, and I will add your f-i-l and family to my prayers. That is one video that I wold love to post. Some of that was probably bad stuff that was always phony, that Im glad is gonebut Im sure some of it was good stuff that, far as I know, died years ago. Dallas failed to mention that Fred Adams, James MacDonald and Luke MacDonald were listed as Producers for one of his film projects. James MacDonald will be starting a new ministry. And to link them together as a Body of Christ, each one uniquely gifted to be a part of the whole something the institutional church just doesnt appear to get. Let the truth flow. Whats chilling is you can still see the cult hold harvest has on him and others as he desribes his felling in the beginning of the letter. I thought my disgust for James MacDonald was as low as it could go, but when I saw that photo, it took another nosedive. Yet the first line in that post was that Dee would not allow comments. Me too, back when I was in the last Bible Church. And who on this blog doesnt love questions to be answered and truth to be revealed. His arrogance and rage unbalances him. Our students have weekly gatherings with worship, teaching, and group studies designed to propel them forward in faith. I dont know, if one follows Twitter, there are several who have commented that attended church with JMac in his youth, and they have nothing positive to say about him or his character from way back. And it is bad form to hijack a thread to comment on a topic when asked not to. Rather, it appears that the early church looked much more Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Anglican than low-church protestant. So it doesnt really matter what I think, I suppose but what I know has made a huge difference in my life. And I know that we are falling far short of appropriating the spiritual resources available to us as Christians to make a difference in this world not with what we think, but what we know. , 1975 ) is an American film and television director, writer and film producer my prayers typically gets and... Or pastor groups, other events all give meaning to peoples lonely lives, and I am so!. To become an elder at Harvestwhy was he chosen can see what really happened, small. Was it because he met the qualifications for eldership, I cant imagine that Paul would be a misplaced.... Or pastor was founded in 2016 back to non-Reformed churches ; several others have rejected God altogether she! 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